Yes, peoples circumstances differ, as do people's reactions to lifes events. I would be lost, I don't kid myself. We have been together for 50 years, never been apart, and I know my attitude to how I still feel valued and not invisible, has a lot to do with him and our relationship.
I love this post. Two halves of a whole, right there
Plus your chap is actually cooking for you until you’re back on your feet. Mine would have had extreme panic attacks anywhere near an oven dial, and had take-out delivery services on speed dial.
Feel free to send yours over to me, when you’ve binned the crutches. I’ll only keep him for as long as it takes him to fill the freezer - promise! 😂
Only if I can swap him for a hunky Señor for a couple of weeks..
Digger said
Jul 8 1:35 PM, 2025
Syl wrote:
Yes, peoples circumstances differ, as do people's reactions to lifes events. I would be lost, I don't kid myself. We have been together for 50 years, never been apart, and I know my attitude to how I still feel valued and not invisible, has a lot to do with him and our relationship.
That's how I feel because he's happy with me with all my faults and age etc. He still loves me and still wants me. So that's the main thing. But the world is still a terribly ageist place. You see the likes of Katie Price and Madonna and all these aging stars who've relied on their beauty and sexuality for decades and are now so desperate to keep that. But you can't. You have to age with a certain amount of dignity.
Digger said
Jul 8 1:41 PM, 2025
Syl wrote:
I think on the surface, mens behaviour towards females has improved.
Most women of a certain age remember being flashed at...(three times in my case, once when I was a kid of around 10) being groped, (I slapped a couple of mens faces hard, thankfully none retaliated, I think in today's world they might) cat calling and wolf whistling was part and parcel of life. I remember the last dance in many dance halls when I was a teenager, too polite to refuse, unfortunately they were not polite enough to stop their erection prodding into my groin.....nightmare times when I think back....oh, and there was no such thing as men raping their wives, it was their right.
My son and grandsons would be appalled at behaviour like that now, when my son was a student he worked on a building site...cat calling after women could be a sacking offence, so it didn't happen.
So how come now there is so much misogyny about, I had never heard of the word incel till fairly recently, and rape increases are soaring.
Are the type of men who openly casually abused women in the past, now the men who seethe inwardly, and their hatred or fear of women is being displayed more insidiously, as you said?
Number of rape offences in England and Wales 2002-2024
Rape offences have increased dramatically in England and Wales since 2012/13 when there were 16,038 offences. After this year, rape offences increased substantially, reaching a high of 69,973 offences in the 2021/22 reporting year, before falling slightly to 68,949 in 2022/23, and to 67,928 in 2023/24. When 2023/24 is compared with the 2002/03 reporting year, there was an almost sixfold increase in the number of rape offences recorded by the police in England and Wales.
Most men are just normal and lovely. I love this type of man which is the kind I'm married to. I love their chivalry, their protective natures, their physical strength. Their fight to show invulnerability and failing miserably. Their daftness and social acceptability of being able to fart with impunity
Vam said
Jul 8 5:28 PM, 2025
Syl wrote:
Vam wrote:
Syl wrote:
Yes, peoples circumstances differ, as do people's reactions to lifes events. I would be lost, I don't kid myself. We have been together for 50 years, never been apart, and I know my attitude to how I still feel valued and not invisible, has a lot to do with him and our relationship.
I love this post. Two halves of a whole, right there
Plus your chap is actually cooking for you until you’re back on your feet. Mine would have had extreme panic attacks anywhere near an oven dial, and had take-out delivery services on speed dial.
Feel free to send yours over to me, when you’ve binned the crutches. I’ll only keep him for as long as it takes him to fill the freezer - promise! 😂
Only if I can swap him for a hunky Señor for a couple of weeks..
👍🏻 OK - I’m on it You choose…
One is too beautiful to be much use, outside of a bedroom.
The other guy is multipurpose - he even comes with his own kitchen! I’m sure he could rustle up your tapas in no time.
(….and I can’t believe I actually nailed posting an image! Go me)
-- Edited by Vam on Tuesday 8th of July 2025 05:30:31 PM
Most men are just normal and lovely. I love this type of man which is the kind I'm married to. I love their chivalry, their protective natures, their physical strength. Their fight to show invulnerability and failing miserably. Their daftness and social acceptability of being able to fart with impunity
Aww…and you were doing so well … then … 😳
Syl said
Jul 8 6:51 PM, 2025
Vam wrote:
Syl wrote:
Vam wrote:
Syl wrote:
Yes, peoples circumstances differ, as do people's reactions to lifes events. I would be lost, I don't kid myself. We have been together for 50 years, never been apart, and I know my attitude to how I still feel valued and not invisible, has a lot to do with him and our relationship.
I love this post. Two halves of a whole, right there
Plus your chap is actually cooking for you until you’re back on your feet. Mine would have had extreme panic attacks anywhere near an oven dial, and had take-out delivery services on speed dial.
Feel free to send yours over to me, when you’ve binned the crutches. I’ll only keep him for as long as it takes him to fill the freezer - promise! 😂
Only if I can swap him for a hunky Señor for a couple of weeks..
👍🏻 OK - I’m on it You choose…
One is too beautiful to be much use, outside of a bedroom.
The other guy is multipurpose - he even comes with his own kitchen! I’m sure he could rustle up your tapas in no time.
(….and I can’t believe I actually nailed posting an image! Go me)
-- Edited by Vam on Tuesday 8th of July 2025 05:30:31 PM
No 1 is devastatingly handsome, just my type...he will also age well, so I am opting for him Vam.
I care not if he is the bedroom or the kitchen guy....I JUST WANT HIM.
Syl said
Jul 8 6:55 PM, 2025
Digger wrote:
Syl wrote:
I think on the surface, mens behaviour towards females has improved.
Most women of a certain age remember being flashed at...(three times in my case, once when I was a kid of around 10) being groped, (I slapped a couple of mens faces hard, thankfully none retaliated, I think in today's world they might) cat calling and wolf whistling was part and parcel of life. I remember the last dance in many dance halls when I was a teenager, too polite to refuse, unfortunately they were not polite enough to stop their erection prodding into my groin.....nightmare times when I think back....oh, and there was no such thing as men raping their wives, it was their right.
My son and grandsons would be appalled at behaviour like that now, when my son was a student he worked on a building site...cat calling after women could be a sacking offence, so it didn't happen.
So how come now there is so much misogyny about, I had never heard of the word incel till fairly recently, and rape increases are soaring.
Are the type of men who openly casually abused women in the past, now the men who seethe inwardly, and their hatred or fear of women is being displayed more insidiously, as you said?
Number of rape offences in England and Wales 2002-2024
Rape offences have increased dramatically in England and Wales since 2012/13 when there were 16,038 offences. After this year, rape offences increased substantially, reaching a high of 69,973 offences in the 2021/22 reporting year, before falling slightly to 68,949 in 2022/23, and to 67,928 in 2023/24. When 2023/24 is compared with the 2002/03 reporting year, there was an almost sixfold increase in the number of rape offences recorded by the police in England and Wales.
Most men are just normal and lovely. I love this type of man which is the kind I'm married to. I love their chivalry, their protective natures, their physical strength. Their fight to show invulnerability and failing miserably. Their daftness and social acceptability of being able to fart with impunity
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
Red Okktober said
Jul 8 7:31 PM, 2025
Syl wrote:
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
I don't like to fart in front of women as I find it to be bad form, so avoid it wherever possible.
Many years ago I had a one night stand with a girl in Notting Hill - we'd been to see a punk band, so there was lots of booze and drugs going on.
The following morning, I thought my stomach would explode, but tried desperately to hold it in. She left the room at some point, and her bed was kind of level with the window, so I opened it several inches, put my arse to the gap and farted, only to be met by loud cheers.
When I eventually left, what was a darkened street in the early hours of the morning when we arrived, turned out to be Portobello Road Market in the daylight.
Anonymous said
Jul 8 7:50 PM, 2025
Red Okktober wrote:
Syl wrote:
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
I don't like to fart in front of women as I find it to be bad form, so avoid it wherever possible.
Many years ago I had a one night stand with a girl in Notting Hill - we'd been to see a punk band, so there was lots of booze and drugs going on.
The following morning, I thought my stomach would explode, but tried desperately to hold it in. She left the room at some point, and her bed was kind of level with the window, so I opened it several inches, put my arse to the gap and farted, only to be met by loud cheers.
When I eventually left, what was a darkened street in the early hours of the morning when we arrived, turned out to be Portobello Road Market in the daylight.
Did you learn if she left the room to fart elsewhere?
Syl said
Jul 8 11:08 PM, 2025
Red Okktober wrote:
Syl wrote:
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
I don't like to fart in front of women as I find it to be bad form, so avoid it wherever possible.
Many years ago I had a one night stand with a girl in Notting Hill - we'd been to see a punk band, so there was lots of booze and drugs going on.
The following morning, I thought my stomach would explode, but tried desperately to hold it in. She left the room at some point, and her bed was kind of level with the window, so I opened it several inches, put my arse to the gap and farted, only to be met by loud cheers.
When I eventually left, what was a darkened street in the early hours of the morning when we arrived, turned out to be Portobello Road Market in the daylight.
Vam said
Jul 8 11:40 PM, 2025
Syl wrote:
No 1 is devastatingly handsome, just my type...he will also age well, so I am opting for him Vam.
I care not if he is the bedroom or the kitchen guy....I JUST WANT HIM.
I figured that‘s the one you’d zero in on!
Vam said
Jul 8 11:54 PM, 2025
Red Okktober wrote:
Syl wrote:
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
I don't like to fart in front of women as I find it to be bad form, so avoid it wherever possible.
Many years ago I had a one night stand with a girl in Notting Hill - we'd been to see a punk band, so there was lots of booze and drugs going on.
The following morning, I thought my stomach would explode, but tried desperately to hold it in. She left the room at some point, and her bed was kind of level with the window, so I opened it several inches, put my arse to the gap and farted, only to be met by loud cheers.
When I eventually left, what was a darkened street in the early hours of the morning when we arrived, turned out to be Portobello Road Market in the daylight.
🤣🤣🤣
I’m assuming this happened before the days when people would whip out their phones to record every single thing they see - even a fluttering leaf blowing along a pavement.
Just imagine - your arse could have had a starring role on countless TikTok/Insta/Facebook feeds within hours. You would have had to register your arse for Intellectual Property protection! 🤣
Digger said
Jul 9 11:31 AM, 2025
Syl wrote:
Digger wrote:
Syl wrote:
I think on the surface, mens behaviour towards females has improved.
Most women of a certain age remember being flashed at...(three times in my case, once when I was a kid of around 10) being groped, (I slapped a couple of mens faces hard, thankfully none retaliated, I think in today's world they might) cat calling and wolf whistling was part and parcel of life. I remember the last dance in many dance halls when I was a teenager, too polite to refuse, unfortunately they were not polite enough to stop their erection prodding into my groin.....nightmare times when I think back....oh, and there was no such thing as men raping their wives, it was their right.
My son and grandsons would be appalled at behaviour like that now, when my son was a student he worked on a building site...cat calling after women could be a sacking offence, so it didn't happen.
So how come now there is so much misogyny about, I had never heard of the word incel till fairly recently, and rape increases are soaring.
Are the type of men who openly casually abused women in the past, now the men who seethe inwardly, and their hatred or fear of women is being displayed more insidiously, as you said?
Number of rape offences in England and Wales 2002-2024
Rape offences have increased dramatically in England and Wales since 2012/13 when there were 16,038 offences. After this year, rape offences increased substantially, reaching a high of 69,973 offences in the 2021/22 reporting year, before falling slightly to 68,949 in 2022/23, and to 67,928 in 2023/24. When 2023/24 is compared with the 2002/03 reporting year, there was an almost sixfold increase in the number of rape offences recorded by the police in England and Wales.
Most men are just normal and lovely. I love this type of man which is the kind I'm married to. I love their chivalry, their protective natures, their physical strength. Their fight to show invulnerability and failing miserably. Their daftness and social acceptability of being able to fart with impunity
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
Me and mine were chatting last night about holiday accommodation. He'd found a lovely villa in Greece and reeled off it's attributes to me. Sunset views. Hilltop setting. Infinity pool. Then he let rip a right roarer and quipped...."And jacuzzi!"
Mostly he makes me laugh, sometimes I'm less tolerant.
Syl said
Jul 9 11:35 AM, 2025
Digger wrote:
Syl wrote:
Digger wrote:
Syl wrote:
I think on the surface, mens behaviour towards females has improved.
Most women of a certain age remember being flashed at...(three times in my case, once when I was a kid of around 10) being groped, (I slapped a couple of mens faces hard, thankfully none retaliated, I think in today's world they might) cat calling and wolf whistling was part and parcel of life. I remember the last dance in many dance halls when I was a teenager, too polite to refuse, unfortunately they were not polite enough to stop their erection prodding into my groin.....nightmare times when I think back....oh, and there was no such thing as men raping their wives, it was their right.
My son and grandsons would be appalled at behaviour like that now, when my son was a student he worked on a building site...cat calling after women could be a sacking offence, so it didn't happen.
So how come now there is so much misogyny about, I had never heard of the word incel till fairly recently, and rape increases are soaring.
Are the type of men who openly casually abused women in the past, now the men who seethe inwardly, and their hatred or fear of women is being displayed more insidiously, as you said?
Number of rape offences in England and Wales 2002-2024
Rape offences have increased dramatically in England and Wales since 2012/13 when there were 16,038 offences. After this year, rape offences increased substantially, reaching a high of 69,973 offences in the 2021/22 reporting year, before falling slightly to 68,949 in 2022/23, and to 67,928 in 2023/24. When 2023/24 is compared with the 2002/03 reporting year, there was an almost sixfold increase in the number of rape offences recorded by the police in England and Wales.
Most men are just normal and lovely. I love this type of man which is the kind I'm married to. I love their chivalry, their protective natures, their physical strength. Their fight to show invulnerability and failing miserably. Their daftness and social acceptability of being able to fart with impunity
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
Me and mine were chatting last night about holiday accommodation. He'd found a lovely villa in Greece and reeled off it's attributes to me. Sunset views. Hilltop setting. Infinity pool. Then he let rip a right roarer and quipped...."And jacuzzi!"
Mostly he makes me laugh, sometimes I'm less tolerant.
Men are very odd.
I have a husband, son, two grandsons, son in law....they all find farting, and conversations about farting hilarious. Sometimes it is funny....mostly, just bloody boring.
Digger said
Jul 9 11:37 AM, 2025
Red Okktober wrote:
Syl wrote:
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
I don't like to fart in front of women as I find it to be bad form, so avoid it wherever possible.
Many years ago I had a one night stand with a girl in Notting Hill - we'd been to see a punk band, so there was lots of booze and drugs going on.
The following morning, I thought my stomach would explode, but tried desperately to hold it in. She left the room at some point, and her bed was kind of level with the window, so I opened it several inches, put my arse to the gap and farted, only to be met by loud cheers.
When I eventually left, what was a darkened street in the early hours of the morning when we arrived, turned out to be Portobello Road Market in the daylight.
Nearly as bad as my ex, who was a policeman. He was patrolling Burnham High Street at 3am and had a terrible attack of wind. So he stopped, lifted his leg and let it go. He said it was so loud and prolonged it actually echoed down the empty street. Then some bloke he hadn't known was behind him scurried past.
Digger said
Jul 9 11:41 AM, 2025
Syl wrote:
Digger wrote:
Syl wrote:
I think on the surface, mens behaviour towards females has improved.
Most women of a certain age remember being flashed at...(three times in my case, once when I was a kid of around 10) being groped, (I slapped a couple of mens faces hard, thankfully none retaliated, I think in today's world they might) cat calling and wolf whistling was part and parcel of life. I remember the last dance in many dance halls when I was a teenager, too polite to refuse, unfortunately they were not polite enough to stop their erection prodding into my groin.....nightmare times when I think back....oh, and there was no such thing as men raping their wives, it was their right.
My son and grandsons would be appalled at behaviour like that now, when my son was a student he worked on a building site...cat calling after women could be a sacking offence, so it didn't happen.
So how come now there is so much misogyny about, I had never heard of the word incel till fairly recently, and rape increases are soaring.
Are the type of men who openly casually abused women in the past, now the men who seethe inwardly, and their hatred or fear of women is being displayed more insidiously, as you said?
Number of rape offences in England and Wales 2002-2024
Rape offences have increased dramatically in England and Wales since 2012/13 when there were 16,038 offences. After this year, rape offences increased substantially, reaching a high of 69,973 offences in the 2021/22 reporting year, before falling slightly to 68,949 in 2022/23, and to 67,928 in 2023/24. When 2023/24 is compared with the 2002/03 reporting year, there was an almost sixfold increase in the number of rape offences recorded by the police in England and Wales.
Most men are just normal and lovely. I love this type of man which is the kind I'm married to. I love their chivalry, their protective natures, their physical strength. Their fight to show invulnerability and failing miserably. Their daftness and social acceptability of being able to fart with impunity
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
Flatulence acceptability is an odd thing. For me, it's ok if its my long term partner. I'll mostly see the funny side. But someone you're just dating? Or don't know. Big no no.
Syl said
Jul 9 11:57 AM, 2025
When I had been going out with my now husband then boyfriend for a few weeks, we went to Newquay for a few days, just getting to know each other better. We were looking in a jewellery shop window, another man was also looking at the items. My then boyfriend wandered off, so it was just me and the other man. I suddenly smelt the foulest pong. I thought what a pig, he had stood right next to me and obviously silently farted...I caught OH up, told him, he was as disgusted as I was.
Years later, we were playing one of those daft truth/dare games.... he started laughing and said....remember that time we went to Newquay? turns out it wasn't the other bloke ....
Red Okktober said
Jul 9 12:56 PM, 2025
Vam wrote:
🤣🤣🤣
I’m assuming this happened before the days when people would whip out their phones to record every single thing they see - even a fluttering leaf blowing along a pavement.
Just imagine - your arse could have had a starring role on countless TikTok/Insta/Facebook feeds within hours. You would have had to register your arse for Intellectual Property protection! 🤣
In today's world I suppose I might have made it onto Youtube or TikTok, but thankfully my youth happened before mobiles and social media came along.
I can't get my head around the thought of spending my 20s holding up a phone instead of enjoying myself and getting sweaty!
Red Okktober said
Jul 9 12:58 PM, 2025
Digger wrote:
Nearly as bad as my ex, who was a policeman. He was patrolling Burnham High Street at 3am and had a terrible attack of wind. So he stopped, lifted his leg and let it go. He said it was so loud and prolonged it actually echoed down the empty street. Then some bloke he hadn't known was behind him scurried past.
The word 'thunderclap' comes to mind.
I always thought the leg lifting was done for comedy effect, but I suppose there might be some science to it now I think about it.
Digger said
Jul 9 1:04 PM, 2025
Red Okktober wrote:
Digger wrote:
Nearly as bad as my ex, who was a policeman. He was patrolling Burnham High Street at 3am and had a terrible attack of wind. So he stopped, lifted his leg and let it go. He said it was so loud and prolonged it actually echoed down the empty street. Then some bloke he hadn't known was behind him scurried past.
The word 'thunderclap' comes to mind.
I always thought the leg lifting was done for comedy effect, but I suppose there might be some science to it now I think about it.
It was one of his foibles. But he was an incorrigible show off, so the leg lift was nearly always done for effect.
Only if I can swap him for a hunky Señor for a couple of weeks..
That's how I feel because he's happy with me with all my faults and age etc. He still loves me and still wants me. So that's the main thing. But the world is still a terribly ageist place. You see the likes of Katie Price and Madonna and all these aging stars who've relied on their beauty and sexuality for decades and are now so desperate to keep that. But you can't. You have to age with a certain amount of dignity.
Most men are just normal and lovely. I love this type of man which is the kind I'm married to. I love their chivalry, their protective natures, their physical strength. Their fight to show invulnerability and failing miserably. Their daftness and social acceptability of being able to fart with impunity
👍🏻 OK - I’m on it
You choose…
One is too beautiful to be much use, outside of a bedroom.
The other guy is multipurpose - he even comes with his own kitchen! I’m sure he could rustle up your tapas in no time.
(….and I can’t believe I actually nailed posting an image! Go me
)
-- Edited by Vam on Tuesday 8th of July 2025 05:30:31 PM
Aww…and you were doing so well … then … 😳
No 1 is devastatingly handsome, just my type...he will also age well, so I am opting for him Vam.
I care not if he is the bedroom or the kitchen guy....I JUST WANT HIM.
The fart thing is still offputting to me. Many a time my OH will open the back patio door, stick his arse out and let rip. I appreciate the thought of him not doing it in the house, but God knows what the next door neighbours make of it.
I don't like to fart in front of women as I find it to be bad form, so avoid it wherever possible.
Many years ago I had a one night stand with a girl in Notting Hill - we'd been to see a punk band, so there was lots of booze and drugs going on.
The following morning, I thought my stomach would explode, but tried desperately to hold it in. She left the room at some point, and her bed was kind of level with the window, so I opened it several inches, put my arse to the gap and farted, only to be met by loud cheers.
When I eventually left, what was a darkened street in the early hours of the morning when we arrived, turned out to be Portobello Road Market in the daylight.
Did you learn if she left the room to fart elsewhere?
I figured that‘s the one you’d zero in on!
🤣🤣🤣
I’m assuming this happened before the days when people would whip out their phones to record every single thing they see - even a fluttering leaf blowing along a pavement.
Just imagine - your arse could have had a starring role on countless TikTok/Insta/Facebook feeds within hours. You would have had to register your arse for Intellectual Property protection! 🤣
Me and mine were chatting last night about holiday accommodation. He'd found a lovely villa in Greece and reeled off it's attributes to me. Sunset views. Hilltop setting. Infinity pool. Then he let rip a right roarer and quipped...."And jacuzzi!"
Mostly he makes me laugh, sometimes I'm less tolerant.
Men are very odd.
I have a husband, son, two grandsons, son in law....they all find farting, and conversations about farting hilarious. Sometimes it is funny....mostly, just bloody boring.
Nearly as bad as my ex, who was a policeman. He was patrolling Burnham High Street at 3am and had a terrible attack of wind. So he stopped, lifted his leg and let it go. He said it was so loud and prolonged it actually echoed down the empty street. Then some bloke he hadn't known was behind him scurried past.
Flatulence acceptability is an odd thing. For me, it's ok if its my long term partner. I'll mostly see the funny side. But someone you're just dating? Or don't know. Big no no.
When I had been going out with my now husband then boyfriend for a few weeks, we went to Newquay for a few days, just getting to know each other better. We were looking in a jewellery shop window, another man was also looking at the items. My then boyfriend wandered off, so it was just me and the other man. I suddenly smelt the foulest pong. I thought what a pig, he had stood right next to me and obviously silently farted...I caught OH up, told him, he was as disgusted as I was.
Years later, we were playing one of those daft truth/dare games.... he started laughing and said....remember that time we went to Newquay? turns out it wasn't the other bloke ....
In today's world I suppose I might have made it onto Youtube or TikTok, but thankfully my youth happened before mobiles and social media came along.
I can't get my head around the thought of spending my 20s holding up a phone instead of enjoying myself and getting sweaty!
The word 'thunderclap' comes to mind.
I always thought the leg lifting was done for comedy effect, but I suppose there might be some science to it now I think about it.
It was one of his foibles. But he was an incorrigible show off, so the leg lift was nearly always done for effect.