Two Dachshunds and a Leonberger are among eight dogs who were seized by the council after a woman was fatally mauled by a pack of animals.
Horrified sources have recalled the sheer terror of the dog walker, 28, who tried to keep onlookers away even as the animals - who were 'like a pack of wolves' - attacked her in the remote beauty spot Gravelly Hill in Caterham at 2.45pm on Thursday.
'There was no barking – just her screaming. She was being attacked, she was trying to sit up, but with the dogs around her and going for her arms she couldn't do it. It was a frenzy.'
She was reportedly walking up to seven dogs at the time and was attempting to wrangle the animals after one lunged at a woman and her smaller dog who were also in the park.
'Most of them may have been still on their leads,' one source told the Daily Mail.
'They were tangled round her, meaning she couldn't stand. It was impossible for them to get away, so in their frenzy they just went for what was in front of them.'
Early reports indicate none of the dogs are of a dangerous or forbidden breed. They are thought to include a Leonberger - which is a cross between a Newfoundland and a St Bernard - and two sausage dogs.
It was not clear how many of them attacked the victim and only one of the dogs appeared to be of substantial size.
Two horse riders chanced upon the attack as it was happening and appeared poised to intervene, but, a source said 'this woman in sheer panic was shouting at the riders ''go back, go back''.'
A couple of the dogs made moves toward the horses – leading to one bolting and galloping in terror back down the bridle path. The rider was thrown off.
The unseated rider, 60-year-old Susan Dove, said: 'We could hear shouting and screaming. I thought 'oh my God, this is awful'.'
The source added: 'There was nothing the riders could have done. She just had too many dogs. If they get into a frenzy, you need to be able to control them. If something happens, it's like having seven small wolves attacking you.'
I think this walking of multiple dogs should be banned. It's sheer laziness on the part of the dog walker, and had my dog been with this lot and had to be destroyed as a result, I'd be devastated.
What people forget is that a tethered dog when it's attacked is a fearful dog. It will snap at anything, blindly, in an attempt to defend itself. And this is what I think has happened.
In normal circumstances, an unleashed dog would be able to put sufficient distance between himself and a fear source but this is the result of what happens when they can't, absolute fucking carnage.
I really don't blame the dogs. The walker should not have had so many with her, particularly not those very large ones.
Syl said
Jan 14 1:15 AM, 2023
I used the word 'carnage' also, when I read of this.
It's madness to own, or gather together, this number of dogs.
Maddog said
Jan 14 1:49 AM, 2023
You can do this with dogs that are very socialized to this sort of thing.
That's a very small percentage of dogs out there.
Leonbergers are massive dogs, but generally gentle. But they are dogs and capable of a lot of damage. I don't think they are a mix of Newfie and St Bernard either.
So this person didn't own these dogs and was just walking them?.
Did these dogs live with each other?
Vita said
Jan 14 2:16 AM, 2023
Syl wrote:
I used the word 'carnage' also, when I read of this. It's madness to own, or gather together, this number of dogs.
There's no legal restriction on the number of dogs a dog walker should walk at once but it's recommended that's it's no more than four.
Even that's too many.
When me and Daisy were attacked last year that was just two dogs and I know if I had lost my footing with that big one throwing itself at me, I would have been seriously injured and Daisy would have been killed.
Vita said
Jan 14 2:17 AM, 2023
Maddog wrote:
You can do this with dogs that are very socialized to this sort of thing.
That's a very small percentage of dogs out there.
Leonbergers are massive dogs, but generally gentle. But they are dogs and capable of a lot of damage. I don't think they are a mix of Newfie and St Bernard either.
So this person didn't own these dogs and was just walking them?.
Did these dogs live with each other?
I think some of them did Madders but not all of them.
Digger said
Jan 14 11:17 AM, 2023
Maddog wrote:
You can do this with dogs that are very socialized to this sort of thing.
That's a very small percentage of dogs out there.
Leonbergers are massive dogs, but generally gentle. But they are dogs and capable of a lot of damage. I don't think they are a mix of Newfie and St Bernard either.
So this person didn't own these dogs and was just walking them?.
Did these dogs live with each other?
She was a professional dog walker, so I doubt all the dogs knew each other. Even socialised dogs will behave with a pack mentality if triggered and fearful. The problem was they were all on the leash and the leashes got tangled up with her at the centre, and the dogs panicked and started fighting. That's a pure fear response from the dogs. The dogs would not have known her flesh from another dog's flesh. They just snap and bite in defence. It's a hellish scenario.
Maddog said
Jan 14 1:55 PM, 2023
Digger wrote:
Maddog wrote:
You can do this with dogs that are very socialized to this sort of thing.
That's a very small percentage of dogs out there.
Leonbergers are massive dogs, but generally gentle. But they are dogs and capable of a lot of damage. I don't think they are a mix of Newfie and St Bernard either.
So this person didn't own these dogs and was just walking them?.
Did these dogs live with each other?
She was a professional dog walker, so I doubt all the dogs knew each other. Even socialised dogs will behave with a pack mentality if triggered and fearful. The problem was they were all on the leash and the leashes got tangled up with her at the centre, and the dogs panicked and started fighting. That's a pure fear response from the dogs. The dogs would not have known her flesh from another dog's flesh. They just snap and bite in defence. It's a hellish scenario.
Yeah, so she wasn't the dogs master, and the dogs weren't roommates..
I can see the problem there. The dogs don't look to her as their leader, and she probably couldn't calm them down.
Leash aggression is a real thing, but it can be overcome. But if it exists, a stranger doesn't need to handle 7 dogs, one of which might outweigh her.
Syl said
Jan 14 2:02 PM, 2023
She must have been so terrified, and brave. She told the riders to stay back, obviously she realised the dogs would have attacked anyone who came to help her.
Some, not all, local councils do have rules about how many dogs can be walked at the same time.
Incidents like this are so rare, but maybe more councils should limit the number.
Digger said
Jan 14 2:55 PM, 2023
Syl wrote:
She must have been so terrified, and brave. She told the riders to stay back, obviously she realised the dogs would have attacked anyone who came to help her.
Some, not all, local councils do have rules about how many dogs can be walked at the same time. Incidents like this are so rare, but maybe more councils should limit the number.
I know it's a dreadful price to pay. I can't imagine how painful it would have been too. Perhaps she died of a heart attack because of it ... nobody knows yet exactly what the cause of death is.
Digger said
Jan 14 2:58 PM, 2023
Maddog wrote:
Digger wrote:
Maddog wrote:
You can do this with dogs that are very socialized to this sort of thing.
That's a very small percentage of dogs out there.
Leonbergers are massive dogs, but generally gentle. But they are dogs and capable of a lot of damage. I don't think they are a mix of Newfie and St Bernard either.
So this person didn't own these dogs and was just walking them?.
Did these dogs live with each other?
She was a professional dog walker, so I doubt all the dogs knew each other. Even socialised dogs will behave with a pack mentality if triggered and fearful. The problem was they were all on the leash and the leashes got tangled up with her at the centre, and the dogs panicked and started fighting. That's a pure fear response from the dogs. The dogs would not have known her flesh from another dog's flesh. They just snap and bite in defence. It's a hellish scenario.
Yeah, so she wasn't the dogs master, and the dogs weren't roommates..
I can see the problem there. The dogs don't look to her as their leader, and she probably couldn't calm them down.
Leash aggression is a real thing, but it can be overcome. But if it exists, a stranger doesn't need to handle 7 dogs, one of which might outweigh her.
My dog is the most loving affectionate softie you can imagine. But one day he slipped his collar and bounded over to another dog who started snapping at him. He snapped back, and because he has compromised vision due to congenital strabismus, he got scared and the real fight began. My husband tried to intervene and he got bitten. Not because my dog was vicious, but because he just got in the way....because when a dog is in fearful fight mode it will not respond to your voice.
Maddog said
Jan 14 3:23 PM, 2023
Yup, sweet dogs can often have anxiety about certain settings (like another dog acting a fool). That will trigger that anxiety which is basically fear. Then the dog has to choose between flight or fight.
A lot of problems arise with sweet dogs and owners that don't realize that "sweetness" can turn on a dime when anxiety kicks in for that dog. Owners need to either train the dog out of that response, or keep the dog away from that trigger. That's why most dogs need to always be on a lead. It gives the owner the ability to physically move the dog away from that trigger (unless it's a Leonberger, then maybe not)..
Then there is some weird vibe that dogs get about other dogs (like humans I guess).
Some dogs just don't want anything to do with some other dogs, while they find most dogs to be their buddies. These 7 dogs may not have all been on "friendly" terms.
Lastly, one of the best commands that people should teach dogs, but don't, is "leave it".
Teach your dog that that command means get the hell away from something and focus on me.
Based on my almost daily interaction with dogs in other people homes, most dogs are never taught that command.
But the dogs do provide companionship for their owners and bring them joy (most of the time). As long as the dog is well cared for, and isn't harming other people, I'm OK with however people want to handle their pets.
-- Edited by Maddog on Saturday 14th of January 2023 05:21:13 PM
Yup, sweet dogs can often have anxiety about certain settings (like another dog acting a fool). That will trigger that anxiety which is basically fear. Then the dog has to choose between flight or fight.
A lot of problems arise with sweet dogs and owners that don't realize that "sweetness" can turn on a dime when anxiety kicks in for that dog. Owners need to either train the dog out of that response, or keep the dog away from that trigger. That's why most dogs need to always be on a lead. It gives the owner the ability to physically move the dog away from that trigger (unless it's a Leonberger, then maybe not)..
Then there is some weird vibe that dogs get about other dogs (like humans I guess).
Some dogs just don't want anything to do with some other dogs, while they find most dogs to be their buddies. These 7 dogs may not have all been on "friendly" terms.
Lastly, one of the best commands that people should teach dogs, but don't, is "leave it".
Teach your dog that that command means get the hell away from something and focus on me.
Based on my almost daily interaction with dogs in other people homes, most dogs are never taught that command.
But the dogs do provide companionship for their owners and bring them joy (most of the time). As long as the dog is well cared for, and isn't harming other people, I'm OK with however people want to handle their pets.
-- Edited by Maddog on Saturday 14th of January 2023 05:21:13 PM
We have a husky, which is a breed notorious for being stubborn and hard to train. They are so called 'independent thinkers' and he's really bright. He's a bit spoilt though, and hasn't been trained as well as we should have because he's such a big cuddly softie. But I think one of the biggest mistakes people make with dogs is to mistake them as human and misread or entirely miss the signals dogs give out. I'm alpha in our house as far as the dog goes, and he knows that. I've only go to raise my voice and he's ears back and Ooops! My husband, on the other hand, is either treated as an equal or an inferior.
Maddog said
Jan 15 2:14 AM, 2023
Digger wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Yup, sweet dogs can often have anxiety about certain settings (like another dog acting a fool). That will trigger that anxiety which is basically fear. Then the dog has to choose between flight or fight.
A lot of problems arise with sweet dogs and owners that don't realize that "sweetness" can turn on a dime when anxiety kicks in for that dog. Owners need to either train the dog out of that response, or keep the dog away from that trigger. That's why most dogs need to always be on a lead. It gives the owner the ability to physically move the dog away from that trigger (unless it's a Leonberger, then maybe not)..
Then there is some weird vibe that dogs get about other dogs (like humans I guess).
Some dogs just don't want anything to do with some other dogs, while they find most dogs to be their buddies. These 7 dogs may not have all been on "friendly" terms.
Lastly, one of the best commands that people should teach dogs, but don't, is "leave it".
Teach your dog that that command means get the hell away from something and focus on me.
Based on my almost daily interaction with dogs in other people homes, most dogs are never taught that command.
But the dogs do provide companionship for their owners and bring them joy (most of the time). As long as the dog is well cared for, and isn't harming other people, I'm OK with however people want to handle their pets.
-- Edited by Maddog on Saturday 14th of January 2023 05:21:13 PM
We have a husky, which is a breed notorious for being stubborn and hard to train. They are so called 'independent thinkers' and he's really bright. He's a bit spoilt though, and hasn't been trained as well as we should have because he's such a big cuddly softie. But I think one of the biggest mistakes people make with dogs is to mistake them as human and misread or entirely miss the signals dogs give out. I'm alpha in our house as far as the dog goes, and he knows that. I've only go to raise my voice and he's ears back and Ooops! My husband, on the other hand, is either treated as an equal or an inferior.
A dog psychologist has said only stressed out dogs would act in this way and if only one or two of them had been troubled, then the whole pack wouldn't have behaved this way but the fact they all attacked her means they were all stressed and might have been from the moment they arrived at the park.
They might all have been strangers to each other and bundled together in the back of a van.
Where they in cages, or all huddled together, maybe some dog snapping, one of them Shiva was 11 stone.
A dog that size should be walked on it's own and not with six other dogs, a collie, cockapoo, and two sausage dogs are now known to have been with her.
Two Dachshunds and a Leonberger are among eight dogs who were seized by the council after a woman was fatally mauled by a pack of animals.
Horrified sources have recalled the sheer terror of the dog walker, 28, who tried to keep onlookers away even as the animals - who were 'like a pack of wolves' - attacked her in the remote beauty spot Gravelly Hill in Caterham at 2.45pm on Thursday.
'There was no barking – just her screaming. She was being attacked, she was trying to sit up, but with the dogs around her and going for her arms she couldn't do it. It was a frenzy.'
She was reportedly walking up to seven dogs at the time and was attempting to wrangle the animals after one lunged at a woman and her smaller dog who were also in the park.
'Most of them may have been still on their leads,' one source told the Daily Mail.
'They were tangled round her, meaning she couldn't stand. It was impossible for them to get away, so in their frenzy they just went for what was in front of them.'
Early reports indicate none of the dogs are of a dangerous or forbidden breed. They are thought to include a Leonberger - which is a cross between a Newfoundland and a St Bernard - and two sausage dogs.
It was not clear how many of them attacked the victim and only one of the dogs appeared to be of substantial size.
Two horse riders chanced upon the attack as it was happening and appeared poised to intervene, but, a source said 'this woman in sheer panic was shouting at the riders ''go back, go back''.'
A couple of the dogs made moves toward the horses – leading to one bolting and galloping in terror back down the bridle path. The rider was thrown off.
The unseated rider, 60-year-old Susan Dove, said: 'We could hear shouting and screaming. I thought 'oh my God, this is awful'.'
The source added: 'There was nothing the riders could have done. She just had too many dogs. If they get into a frenzy, you need to be able to control them. If something happens, it's like having seven small wolves attacking you.'
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11633635/Dachshunds-Leonberger-eight-dogs-seized-fatal-mauling-dog-walker-28.html
I think this walking of multiple dogs should be banned. It's sheer laziness on the part of the dog walker, and had my dog been with this lot and had to be destroyed as a result, I'd be devastated.
What people forget is that a tethered dog when it's attacked is a fearful dog. It will snap at anything, blindly, in an attempt to defend itself. And this is what I think has happened.
In normal circumstances, an unleashed dog would be able to put sufficient distance between himself and a fear source but this is the result of what happens when they can't, absolute fucking carnage.
I really don't blame the dogs. The walker should not have had so many with her, particularly not those very large ones.
It's madness to own, or gather together, this number of dogs.
That's a very small percentage of dogs out there.
Leonbergers are massive dogs, but generally gentle. But they are dogs and capable of a lot of damage. I don't think they are a mix of Newfie and St Bernard either.
So this person didn't own these dogs and was just walking them?.
Did these dogs live with each other?
There's no legal restriction on the number of dogs a dog walker should walk at once but it's recommended that's it's no more than four.
Even that's too many.
When me and Daisy were attacked last year that was just two dogs and I know if I had lost my footing with that big one throwing itself at me, I would have been seriously injured and Daisy would have been killed.
I think some of them did Madders but not all of them.
She was a professional dog walker, so I doubt all the dogs knew each other. Even socialised dogs will behave with a pack mentality if triggered and fearful. The problem was they were all on the leash and the leashes got tangled up with her at the centre, and the dogs panicked and started fighting. That's a pure fear response from the dogs. The dogs would not have known her flesh from another dog's flesh. They just snap and bite in defence. It's a hellish scenario.
Yeah, so she wasn't the dogs master, and the dogs weren't roommates..
I can see the problem there. The dogs don't look to her as their leader, and she probably couldn't calm them down.
Leash aggression is a real thing, but it can be overcome. But if it exists, a stranger doesn't need to handle 7 dogs, one of which might outweigh her.
Some, not all, local councils do have rules about how many dogs can be walked at the same time.
Incidents like this are so rare, but maybe more councils should limit the number.
I know it's a dreadful price to pay. I can't imagine how painful it would have been too. Perhaps she died of a heart attack because of it ... nobody knows yet exactly what the cause of death is.
My dog is the most loving affectionate softie you can imagine. But one day he slipped his collar and bounded over to another dog who started snapping at him. He snapped back, and because he has compromised vision due to congenital strabismus, he got scared and the real fight began. My husband tried to intervene and he got bitten. Not because my dog was vicious, but because he just got in the way....because when a dog is in fearful fight mode it will not respond to your voice.
Yup, sweet dogs can often have anxiety about certain settings (like another dog acting a fool). That will trigger that anxiety which is basically fear. Then the dog has to choose between flight or fight.
A lot of problems arise with sweet dogs and owners that don't realize that "sweetness" can turn on a dime when anxiety kicks in for that dog. Owners need to either train the dog out of that response, or keep the dog away from that trigger. That's why most dogs need to always be on a lead. It gives the owner the ability to physically move the dog away from that trigger (unless it's a Leonberger, then maybe not)..
Then there is some weird vibe that dogs get about other dogs (like humans I guess).
Some dogs just don't want anything to do with some other dogs, while they find most dogs to be their buddies. These 7 dogs may not have all been on "friendly" terms.
Lastly, one of the best commands that people should teach dogs, but don't, is "leave it".
Teach your dog that that command means get the hell away from something and focus on me.
Based on my almost daily interaction with dogs in other people homes, most dogs are never taught that command.
But the dogs do provide companionship for their owners and bring them joy (most of the time). As long as the dog is well cared for, and isn't harming other people, I'm OK with however people want to handle their pets.
-- Edited by Maddog on Saturday 14th of January 2023 05:21:13 PM
[video=https://youtube.com/shorts/4gcxpKdn3Uw?feature=share]
Even though he talks funny, this guy is on my saved list amd I watch him almost every day.
[video=https://youtube.com/shorts/4gcxpKdn3Uw?feature=share]
We have a husky, which is a breed notorious for being stubborn and hard to train. They are so called 'independent thinkers' and he's really bright. He's a bit spoilt though, and hasn't been trained as well as we should have because he's such a big cuddly softie. But I think one of the biggest mistakes people make with dogs is to mistake them as human and misread or entirely miss the signals dogs give out. I'm alpha in our house as far as the dog goes, and he knows that. I've only go to raise my voice and he's ears back and Ooops! My husband, on the other hand, is either treated as an equal or an inferior.
https://youtube.com/shorts/IhgtPV7RjV8?feature=share
A dog psychologist has said only stressed out dogs would act in this way and if only one or two of them had been troubled, then the whole pack wouldn't have behaved this way but the fact they all attacked her means they were all stressed and might have been from the moment they arrived at the park.
They might all have been strangers to each other and bundled together in the back of a van.
Where they in cages, or all huddled together, maybe some dog snapping, one of them Shiva was 11 stone.
A dog that size should be walked on it's own and not with six other dogs, a collie, cockapoo, and two sausage dogs are now known to have been with her.
Dog psychologist says 'only stressed out animals' would maul woman to death | Daily Mail Online
Shiva the Leonberger who is 11 stone.