Is this worrying you, you Trump/Musk/Putin/ Zelenskyy/Europe situation?
It's sort of like a good/evil situation now...support the moral argument or allow the aggressor to get his way for peace...but for how long.
-- Edited by Syl on Monday 24th of February 2025 01:23:28 PM
Maddog said
Feb 24 3:52 PM, 2025
Europe can handle Vlad if they really want to..
I'm more concerned about the economic situation in Europe. That's always the precursor to conflict.
European countries have relied upon the US as their bodyguards while they were free to spend money on things other than defense..
With a shrinking work force and very low birthrate, I don't know how much longer they can fund social programs and an adequate military. They need immigrants, but they don't appear to be attracting the kind they need..
Maddog said
Feb 24 3:55 PM, 2025
As for Ukraine, it sucks that they will probably lose territory. Unfortunately Vlad will keep the meat grinder going for as long as he needs to, knowing that everyone has to make difficult decisions about funding this conflict.
The US has spent hundreds of billions in US taxpayers money keeping Ukraine propped up.
Germany is in trouble, and they are the economic powerhouse of Europe.
They created system that requires an ever-growing work force to fund an ever-growing pension fund.
And the people there, like people everywhere, won't tolerate fewer services and cuts in programs..
Political parties are faced with two options. Take on the problem and lose power, or ignore the problem and let it all crash at a later date..
Barksdale said
Feb 24 5:26 PM, 2025
Maddog wrote:
As for Ukraine, it sucks that they will probably lose territory. Unfortunately Vlad will keep the meat grinder going for as long as he needs to, knowing that everyone has to make difficult decisions about funding this conflict.
The US has spent hundreds of billions in US taxpayers money keeping Ukraine propped up.
We're broke.
I don't think it's really about territory for Putin rather than sovereignty. I think Putin will probably keep pulling the rug from Trump and his negotiations, ekeing out more and more concessions as time goes on. Putin being the dictator that he is has one really big advantage over Trump and Europe: the luxury of time.
You are right to be worried about European economies as they suffer from the same debt and liquidity problems as the US. I see Berkshire Hathaway have entirely come out of two S&P 500 ETFs and are holding high cash reserves. Couple this with soaring gold prices and it seems investors are looking for a different store of value than stocks and houses at the moment. This goes back to my worry that they will stockpile cash and when stocks / house prices fall they will be able to snap them up at reduced costs, making it less likely for ordinary people to own assets as they have to devote their cash to simply staying afloat in difficult times, and leading to vastly inflated prices again in the future.
My wife tells me I should stop worrying about where this is headed but I am the breadwinner in my home and it is on me to provide for my family. Forewarned is forearmed and all that. I don't think WW3 is coming though (because that would really suck!)
Syl said
Feb 24 5:30 PM, 2025
Maddog wrote:
Europe can handle Vlad if they really want to..
I'm more concerned about the economic situation in Europe. That's always the precursor to conflict.
European countries have relied upon the US as their bodyguards while they were free to spend money on things other than defense..
With a shrinking work force and very low birthrate, I don't know how much longer they can fund social programs and an adequate military. They need immigrants, but they don't appear to be attracting the kind they need..
How do you handle a mad man?... though I suppose if you knew that you wouldn't have Trump as your leader.
The economic situation is bad, but more concerning at the moment is Zelenskyy saying he will step down as president IF peace can be guaranteed or if Ukraine could join NATO.
How can either be possible? Putin wants the land, then there may be peace (till he wants more) the Ukrainians don't want to give up their land to Russia...which is why there has a 3 year war with many thousands of soldiers and civilians dead and billions of £ wasted.
Maddog said
Feb 24 6:33 PM, 2025
Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Europe can handle Vlad if they really want to..
I'm more concerned about the economic situation in Europe. That's always the precursor to conflict.
European countries have relied upon the US as their bodyguards while they were free to spend money on things other than defense..
With a shrinking work force and very low birthrate, I don't know how much longer they can fund social programs and an adequate military. They need immigrants, but they don't appear to be attracting the kind they need..
How do you handle a mad man?... though I suppose if you knew that you wouldn't have Trump as your leader.
The economic situation is bad, but more concerning at the moment is Zelenskyy saying he will step down as president IF peace can be guaranteed or if Ukraine could join NATO.
How can either be possible? Putin wants the land, then there may be peace (till he wants more) the Ukrainians don't want to give up their land to Russia...which is why there has a 3 year war with many thousands of soldiers and civilians dead and billions of £ wasted.
I don't think Putin wants to tangle with a real military. He's been stymied by Ukraine which is a third rate military albeit one with lots of new toys.
If an agreement guarantees that Europe defends what's left of Ukraine I think Vlad honors it.
While it would be WWIII if European soldiers marched into Russia, I don't think it would be by simply destroying Russian troops in Ukraine, and that's what would happen..
Syl said
Feb 24 6:55 PM, 2025
OK, but just say European soldiers actually fought on Ukraine soil against the Russian soldiers, which could well happen if NATO did allow the Ukraine to join, would Putin then retreat... or are the talks he is having with Trump somehow come into play then?
jackb said
Feb 24 7:55 PM, 2025
Maddog wrote:
The US has spent hundreds of billions in US taxpayers money keeping Ukraine propped up.
We're broke.
The Americans engineered (forced Europe into having it this way after the second world war.
Maddog said
Feb 24 8:22 PM, 2025
Syl wrote:
OK, but just say European soldiers actually fought on Ukraine soil against the Russian soldiers, which could well happen if NATO did allow the Ukraine to join, would Putin then retreat... or are the talks he is having with Trump somehow come into play then?
I don't think he would retreat.
He'd get his ass kicked.
At some point he'd stop trying.
Maddog said
Feb 24 8:25 PM, 2025
jackb wrote:
Maddog wrote:
The US has spent hundreds of billions in US taxpayers money keeping Ukraine propped up.
We're broke.
The Americans engineered (forced Europe into having it this way after the second world war.
Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union.
I don't think the Americans were planning on pumping billions into it 80 years later.
Or could they envision a country with higher debt levels than we saw at the end of that conflict.
jackb said
Feb 24 8:54 PM, 2025
Maddog wrote:
jackb wrote:
Maddog wrote:
The US has spent hundreds of billions in US taxpayers money keeping Ukraine propped up.
We're broke.
The Americans engineered (forced Europe into having it this way after the second world war.
I don't think the Americans were planning on pumping billions into it 80 years later.
You got what you wanted at a cost you hadn't back then thought through.
Maddog said
Feb 24 11:23 PM, 2025
jackb wrote:
Maddog wrote:
jackb wrote:
Maddog wrote:
The US has spent hundreds of billions in US taxpayers money keeping Ukraine propped up.
We're broke.
The Americans engineered (forced Europe into having it this way after the second world war.
I don't think the Americans were planning on pumping billions into it 80 years later.
You got what you wanted at a cost you hadn't back then thought through.
I don't know if you can blame current events on things that happened 80 years ago.
Are you saying people in 1945 should have known the Soviet Union would dissolve and Russia would invade Ukraine at a later date?
Red Okktober said
Feb 24 11:49 PM, 2025
The ingredients are there for a world war but I don't think it will happen for some time yet.
Civil war in the UK and across Europe, based on cultural differences, is far more likely to happen first.
jackb said
Feb 25 12:38 AM, 2025
Maddog wrote:
jackb wrote:
Maddog wrote:
jackb wrote:
Maddog wrote:
The US has spent hundreds of billions in US taxpayers money keeping Ukraine propped up.
We're broke.
The Americans engineered (forced Europe into having it this way after the second world war.
I don't think the Americans were planning on pumping billions into it 80 years later.
You got what you wanted at a cost you hadn't back then thought through.
I don't know if you can blame current events on things that happened 80 years ago.
Are you saying people in 1945 should have known the Soviet Union would dissolve and Russia would invade Ukraine at a later date?
I'm saying America decided it was a good idea to dominate Europe and if there were cost overruns later don't blame Europe... it was your plan your idea.
Anonymous said
Feb 25 1:43 AM, 2025
Yes with Trump aligning himself with Russia, and talks breaking down. He is a dangerous fool who cares nothing about human life.
Syl said
Feb 25 12:17 PM, 2025
Trump is definitely a megalomaniac, with Musk egging him on, I think they believe they can take over the world.
Aligning themselves with the other mad bastard Putin, they are dangerous to world peace.
Magica said
Feb 25 12:30 PM, 2025
Syl wrote:
Trump is definitely a megalomaniac, with Musk egging him on, I think they believe they can take over the world. Aligning themselves with the other mad bastard Putin, they are dangerous to world peace.
Trump wants Ukraine minerals now.
Syl said
Feb 25 12:36 PM, 2025
Blimey, Starmer has actually said something of worth at last.
"Keir Starmer has issued a grim warning that "Europe will be next" if Vladimir Putin isn't stopped.
On the third anniversary of Russia's bloody invasion, the Prime Minister said the voices of Ukrainians "echo in my ears" as he recalled meeting a patient called Petro in a burns unit."
He said to me 'if Ukraine fails, Europe will be next', and that is what is at stake here," Mr Starmer told an international summit in Kyiv. That is why we will always stand with Ukraine and our allies against this aggression and for a just and lasting peace".
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said he hoped to end the war "this year". But fears are mounting that Donald Trump is preparing to sell out Kyiv for a botched peace deal.
In an alarming shift, the US sided with Russia, Belarus, North Korea and 14 other countries in voting against a UN resolution demanding an immediate withdrawal of Kremlin forces. Foreign Secretary David Lammy distanced himself from the move, telling MPs: "We are proud to have co-sponsored the general assembly resolution proposed by Ukraine in support of a just and lasting peace in Ukraine."
Is this worrying you, you Trump/Musk/Putin/ Zelenskyy/Europe situation?
It's sort of like a good/evil situation now...support the moral argument or allow the aggressor to get his way for peace...but for how long.
-- Edited by Syl on Monday 24th of February 2025 01:23:28 PM
I'm more concerned about the economic situation in Europe. That's always the precursor to conflict.
European countries have relied upon the US as their bodyguards while they were free to spend money on things other than defense..
With a shrinking work force and very low birthrate, I don't know how much longer they can fund social programs and an adequate military. They need immigrants, but they don't appear to be attracting the kind they need..
The US has spent hundreds of billions in US taxpayers money keeping Ukraine propped up.
We're broke.
Germany is in trouble, and they are the economic powerhouse of Europe.
They created system that requires an ever-growing work force to fund an ever-growing pension fund.
And the people there, like people everywhere, won't tolerate fewer services and cuts in programs..
Political parties are faced with two options. Take on the problem and lose power, or ignore the problem and let it all crash at a later date..
I don't think it's really about territory for Putin rather than sovereignty. I think Putin will probably keep pulling the rug from Trump and his negotiations, ekeing out more and more concessions as time goes on. Putin being the dictator that he is has one really big advantage over Trump and Europe: the luxury of time.
You are right to be worried about European economies as they suffer from the same debt and liquidity problems as the US. I see Berkshire Hathaway have entirely come out of two S&P 500 ETFs and are holding high cash reserves. Couple this with soaring gold prices and it seems investors are looking for a different store of value than stocks and houses at the moment. This goes back to my worry that they will stockpile cash and when stocks / house prices fall they will be able to snap them up at reduced costs, making it less likely for ordinary people to own assets as they have to devote their cash to simply staying afloat in difficult times, and leading to vastly inflated prices again in the future.
My wife tells me I should stop worrying about where this is headed but I am the breadwinner in my home and it is on me to provide for my family. Forewarned is forearmed and all that. I don't think WW3 is coming though (because that would really suck!)
How do you handle a mad man?... though I suppose if you knew that you wouldn't have Trump as your leader.
The economic situation is bad, but more concerning at the moment is Zelenskyy saying he will step down as president IF peace can be guaranteed or if Ukraine could join NATO.
How can either be possible? Putin wants the land, then there may be peace (till he wants more) the Ukrainians don't want to give up their land to Russia...which is why there has a 3 year war with many thousands of soldiers and civilians dead and billions of £ wasted.
I don't think Putin wants to tangle with a real military. He's been stymied by Ukraine which is a third rate military albeit one with lots of new toys.
If an agreement guarantees that Europe defends what's left of Ukraine I think Vlad honors it.
While it would be WWIII if European soldiers marched into Russia, I don't think it would be by simply destroying Russian troops in Ukraine, and that's what would happen..
The Americans engineered (forced Europe into having it this way after the second world war.
I don't think he would retreat.
He'd get his ass kicked.
At some point he'd stop trying.
Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union.
I don't think the Americans were planning on pumping billions into it 80 years later.
Or could they envision a country with higher debt levels than we saw at the end of that conflict.
You got what you wanted at a cost you hadn't back then thought through.
I don't know if you can blame current events on things that happened 80 years ago.
Are you saying people in 1945 should have known the Soviet Union would dissolve and Russia would invade Ukraine at a later date?
Civil war in the UK and across Europe, based on cultural differences, is far more likely to happen first.
I'm saying America decided it was a good idea to dominate Europe and if there were cost overruns later don't blame Europe... it was your plan your idea.
Aligning themselves with the other mad bastard Putin, they are dangerous to world peace.
Trump wants Ukraine minerals now.
Blimey, Starmer has actually said something of worth at last.
"Keir Starmer has issued a grim warning that "Europe will be next" if Vladimir Putin isn't stopped.
On the third anniversary of Russia's bloody invasion, the Prime Minister said the voices of Ukrainians "echo in my ears" as he recalled meeting a patient called Petro in a burns unit."
He said to me 'if Ukraine fails, Europe will be next', and that is what is at stake here," Mr Starmer told an international summit in Kyiv. That is why we will always stand with Ukraine and our allies against this aggression and for a just and lasting peace".
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said he hoped to end the war "this year". But fears are mounting that Donald Trump is preparing to sell out Kyiv for a botched peace deal.
In an alarming shift, the US sided with Russia, Belarus, North Korea and 14 other countries in voting against a UN resolution demanding an immediate withdrawal of Kremlin forces. Foreign Secretary David Lammy distanced himself from the move, telling MPs: "We are proud to have co-sponsored the general assembly resolution proposed by Ukraine in support of a just and lasting peace in Ukraine."
Keir Starmer issues Ukraine warning as US sides with Russia in astonishing UN vote
Trump was always going to side with Putin. Let's hope he has a rethink.I
How he can say Ukraine started the war is unbelievable. A little matter of Putin invading Ukraine had something to do with it!