ChaoticMusings

Syl · FIRM BUT FAIR.

The NHS.

Magica · Go Outside

Syl wrote:
I have worked out my ops and procedures, over the last 5 years they would have cost me in the region of 50k.
Before I hit 60, apart from having a baby in hospital, I scarcely used the NHS. Obviously as we age the chances are we will get more things wrong with us.

I paid into the NHS all my working life and took nothing out because I was lucky with my health...I have no qualms about using the services now if/when I need them.

I imagine most Brits who have contributed for decades feel the same.

True Syl. The amount of ops, one for cancer, scans, xrays, etc, over the years, would have cost me a fortune which I couldn't have paid. We all paid in for the NHS, since working at 15, and anyone working, so we are all entitled to it.

Immigrants who pay nothing, are not entitled!

Maddog · Go Outside

Syl wrote:
I have worked out my ops and procedures, over the last 5 years they would have cost me in the region of 50k.
Before I hit 60, apart from having a baby in hospital, I scarcely used the NHS. Obviously as we age the chances are we will get more things wrong with us.

I paid into the NHS all my working life and took nothing out because I was lucky with my health...I have no qualms about using the services now if/when I need them.

I imagine most Brits who have contributed for decades feel the same.

And most Americans pay insurance for decades..

And we pay taxes for decades to pay for our healthcare when we are over 65.

Do you think we are writing checks for knee replacement surgery?

The question is, would you be willing to pay more for better care.

Especially when your life or a loved ones life depends on it?

Maddog · Go Outside

Syl wrote:
Your system works for those who can afford it, obviously for the millions who can't, it won't work.
And who wants to be made bankrupt, even lose their homes, because they have fallen ill or met with an unforeseen accident?
No doubt the insurance companies in the US love people with your attitude.....they are the ones forking it in.

There has been a lot of news here lately about veterinary costs....which of course are not free. People either have insurance for their pets, or are met with huge bills by vet practices that charge astronomical fees, often hidden till the time comes to pay.

In the phone-ins I have heard this week, the majority have said they had to get into debt because the vets bills have run into thousands, and they were not insured because the costs were too high and they couldn't afford the premiums.

That's just for a pet, not for a human.

You won't lose your home over medical debt..

Trump filed bankruptcy numerous times.

He never lost his homes..

And for about the thousandth time, we can buy affordable insurance that protects us.

Think of it like your National Insurance bill that folks pay in the UK, except it's voluntary.

And we get treated privately for the most part.

Syl · FIRM BUT FAIR.

It would be interesting to know how much your medical insurance does cost, monthly/annually.

Generally our taxes are higher and our wages are lower than yours, maybe what you consider "affordable insurance" wouldn't be so affordable here.

https://www.expattaxonline.com/taxes-in-the-uk-vs-taxes-in-the-u-s/

Maddog · Go Outside

Syl wrote:
It would be interesting to know how much your medical insurance does cost, monthly/annually.

Generally our taxes are higher and our wages are lower than yours, maybe what you consider "affordable insurance" wouldn't be so affordable here.

https://www.expattaxonline.com/taxes-in-the-uk-vs-taxes-in-the-u-s/

It depends how much you make. If you make less than 4 times the poverty rate (60K ish for a single person), you're paying less than $100 month..

The government is probably paying another 600 or so a month to your insurance company..

Once you start making 6 figures, you will have to pay full price assuming it's not part of your employment package, which is where most Americans get their coverage..

Since Obamacare, our government subsidizes the hell out of our Healthcare..

Anyone can afford it, if they want it.

I know a girl paying $10 a month.

Granted, a lot of her income is under the table so she qualifies for huge subsidies..

Syl · FIRM BUT FAIR.

So your figures work out around £20 a week, that sounds cheap....I bet the average person pays a lot more than that in the US.

Just out of interest, do you have council taxes on houses? Ours, for an average size house is £2000 pa.

Maddog · Go Outside

Syl wrote:
So your figures work out around £20 a week, that sounds cheap....I bet the average person pays a lot more than that in the US.

Just out of interest, do you have council taxes on houses? Ours, for an average size house is £2000 pa.

The average person is paying a couple hundred bucks a month and their employer pays the rest..

Folks like me don't have an employer, but I'm not average because I'm self employed..

I pay considerably more.

Let's take my 3 kids and 3 son in laws.

All 3 daughters are covered as part of their job. Two of the 3 son in laws are covered at work two. One son in law is covered under my daughter's policy for an additional fee because he's self employed too.

And.

Yes, real estate is taxed in the US..

Texas has some of the highest property taxes in the country. Where I live it's about 3% of the value every year. That works out to about 10 grand a year.

Part of that funds our county hospitals that provide no cost or low cost care to people.

Most of that funds our schools though..

jackthelad · Musing at the Chaos

If you go on the Quora website you'll find huge numbers of Americans crying out for universal health care and hundreds of stories of bankruptcy hundreds more about not going to the doctors because of cost not phoning an ambulance because of cost... they are mostly crying out for universal health care.
The death panels are run by none medical people paid bonuses to find a way to not pay out on the insurance.
Millions of people are working two and three jobs to keep a roof over their heads.
Many of them are one illness away from bankruptcy and homelessness.
The tent cities across America and working people living in cars is testament to the fact America is a very broken and totally bankrupt nation.
Join Quora and get a different world view from Americans... many living here or on the continent now and explaining why they will never go back to the states. Many trapped there who say change is impossible because of the way their country is run and controlled by big money big pharma big insurance big guns.
My wife knows a young American woman who moved here last year who is amazed by the police the hospitals the school here.
Amazed at our freedoms.
Very worried at first that here kids were expected to walk to school and back and the school has fences and gates and that's the limit of security.
She says when she went back for two weeks for her dads' funeral she immediately felt the tension and fear that pervades almost every aspect of the me me me me America she had left behind.
She had forgotten how pervasive advertising was till she went back there and the whole consumerist capitalist angle in your face everywhere you go. Massive billboards every few yards along the highways... you must consume you must own you're not expected to ever find a simple contentment in life.
She has now settled into being a local girl very quickly.
Have a look at and even ask questions on Quora... there are plenty who think like Maddog of course and explain they would rather die than have our communist system!
On the whole America seems to be crying out for change... big change but no one expects it.
It's a broken two party one ideology state.

Maddog · Go Outside

jackthelad wrote:
If you go on the Quora website you'll find huge numbers of Americans crying out for universal health care and hundreds of stories of bankruptcy hundreds more about not going to the doctors because of cost not phoning an ambulance because of cost... they are mostly crying out for universal health care.
The death panels are run by none medical people paid bonuses to find a way to not pay out on the insurance.
Millions of people are working two and three jobs to keep a roof over their heads.
Many of them are one illness away from bankruptcy and homelessness.
The tent cities across America and working people living in cars is testament to the fact America is a very broken and totally bankrupt nation.
Join Quora and get a different world view from Americans... many living here or on the continent now and explaining why they will never go back to the states. Many trapped there who say change is impossible because of the way their country is run and controlled by big money big pharma big insurance big guns.
My wife knows a young American woman who moved here last year who is amazed by the police the hospitals the school here.
Amazed at our freedoms.
Very worried at first that here kids were expected to walk to school and back and the school has fences and gates and that's the limit of security.
She says when she went back for two weeks for her dads' funeral she immediately felt the tension and fear that pervades almost every aspect of the me me me me America she had left behind.
She had forgotten how pervasive advertising was till she went back there and the whole consumerist capitalist angle in your face everywhere you go. Massive billboards every few yards along the highways... you must consume you must own you're not expected to ever find a simple contentment in life.
She has now settled into being a local girl very quickly.
Have a look at and even ask questions on Quora... there are plenty who think like Maddog of course and explain they would rather die than have our communist system!
On the whole America seems to be crying out for change... big change but no one expects it.
It's a broken two party one ideology state.

Americans are far happier on average with their Healthcare than Brits..

Can you find unhappy people?

Sure..

No shortage of that anywhere.

And people don't lose their homes when they file bankruptcy. Your debts are discharged, you get to keep essentials like housing and vehicles, and your credit score sucks for a while.

And nobody is dying if they need care. And there's no reason to go without coverage unless you choose to. It's affordable for everyone.

Maddog · Go Outside

There's a reason private care is growing exponentially in the UK.

Brits aren't stupid and simply wasting money for paying additional money for that care.

They want the quicker and better outcomes that private care offers..

Syl · FIRM BUT FAIR.

Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:
So your figures work out around £20 a week, that sounds cheap....I bet the average person pays a lot more than that in the US.

Just out of interest, do you have council taxes on houses? Ours, for an average size house is £2000 pa.

The average person is paying a couple hundred bucks a month and their employer pays the rest..

Folks like me don't have an employer, but I'm not average because I'm self employed..

I pay considerably more.

Let's take my 3 kids and 3 son in laws.

All 3 daughters are covered as part of their job. Two of the 3 son in laws are covered at work two. One son in law is covered under my daughter's policy for an additional fee because he's self employed too.

And.

Yes, real estate is taxed in the US..

Texas has some of the highest property taxes in the country. Where I live it's about 3% of the value every year. That works out to about 10 grand a year.

Part of that funds our county hospitals that provide no cost or low cost care to people.

Most of that funds our schools though..

My OH was self employed most of his working life to, different rules from workers who had an employer.

So Maddog, you pay quite highly for your medical insurance, presumably without government help. What if you were earning less, or even made redundant?

Would you have to use savings to keep up the insurance, would the government pay, or would you just pray you dont get ill?

Your average council tax bill is a lot higher than ours.

Maddog · Go Outside

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:
Syl wrote:
So your figures work out around £20 a week, that sounds cheap....I bet the average person pays a lot more than that in the US.

Just out of interest, do you have council taxes on houses? Ours, for an average size house is £2000 pa.

The average person is paying a couple hundred bucks a month and their employer pays the rest..

Folks like me don't have an employer, but I'm not average because I'm self employed..

I pay considerably more.

Let's take my 3 kids and 3 son in laws.

All 3 daughters are covered as part of their job. Two of the 3 son in laws are covered at work two. One son in law is covered under my daughter's policy for an additional fee because he's self employed too.

And.

Yes, real estate is taxed in the US..

Texas has some of the highest property taxes in the country. Where I live it's about 3% of the value every year. That works out to about 10 grand a year.

Part of that funds our county hospitals that provide no cost or low cost care to people.

Most of that funds our schools though..
My OH was self employed most of his working life to, different rules from workers who had an employer.
So Maddog, you pay quite highly for your medical insurance, presumably without government help. What if you were earning less, or even made redundant?
Would you have to use savings to keep up the insurance, would the government pay, or would you just pray you dont get ill?

Your average council tax bill is a lot higher than ours.

If I was earning less, I'd be getting subsidies..

If I became redundant, I'd get another job. I've had a job everyday except about a month since I was 16.

I've made it very clear how it works. Those who make less, pay less (or nothing).

Not carrying coverage in the US is a choice at this point.

Syl · FIRM BUT FAIR.

Interesting.

https://yougov.co.uk/international/articles/44185-comparing-american-british-attitudes-health-care

Maddog · Go Outside

news.yale.edu/2018/05/01/disparities-found-lung-cancer-care-survival-us-versus-england

We have far better cancer survival rates.

We act quicker and more aggressive. That's one of the benefits of private care (often paid by the government).

Is it cheaper?

Absolutely not.

I'll let you do the cost/benefit analysis on whether that cost is worth it.

Syl · FIRM BUT FAIR.

Maddog wrote:
news.yale.edu/2018/05/01/disparities-found-lung-cancer-care-survival-us-versus-england

We have far better cancer survival rates.

We act quicker and more aggressive. That's one of the benefits of private care (often paid by the government).

Is it cheaper?

Absolutely not.

I'll let you do the cost/benefit analysis on whether that cost is worth it.

Like I said several times, we have the choice.

I doubt anyone , if they have the means, facing a serious illness that needs immediate care, would opt to wait rather than pay.

Maddog · Go Outside

Syl wrote:
Interesting.

https://yougov.co.uk/international/articles/44185-comparing-american-british-attitudes-health-care

That is interesting. Last I saw, Brits had about a 10% favorable rating for their system.

Maybe that was during a strike..

Also, it depends how the questions are asked. Americans tend to say they get great care, but question how great the overall system is..

Seems like Brits are the opposite. They often bitch about their individual care, while supporting the system because it's fair..

Maddog · Go Outside

Syl wrote:
Maddog wrote:
news.yale.edu/2018/05/01/disparities-found-lung-cancer-care-survival-us-versus-england

We have far better cancer survival rates.

We act quicker and more aggressive. That's one of the benefits of private care (often paid by the government).

Is it cheaper?

Absolutely not.

I'll let you do the cost/benefit analysis on whether that cost is worth it.
Like I said several times, we have the choice.
I doubt anyone , if they have the means, facing a serious illness that needs immediate care, would opt to wait rather than pay.

Then I guess the two tiered system works there too.

Money can get you better care.

The difference here is, that our entire system is much like what's happening with your upcoming surgery.

Regardless of your station in life, you most likely get treated privately. The difference is the funding mechanism. Its a mixture of the patient, their insurance company and the government. Could be 1, 2 or all 3 parties..

Maddog · Go Outside

And, I'd like to add, that the typical American really has no idea what your National Insurance costs. Many have been conditioned to believe it costs nothing.

Many would change their minds the second they found out they would be paying amd additional 10% in taxes, to wait in line at a government run hospital.

Never underestimate the stupidity of the average American. The average American is pretty ill-informed, and half are worse than the average..

jackthelad · Musing at the Chaos

Maddog wrote:
There's a reason private care is growing exponentially in the UK.

Brits aren't stupid and simply wasting money for paying additional money for that care.

They want the quicker and better outcomes that private care offers..

The outcomes are exactly the same because it's the same doctors and surgeons and usually the same equipment.